The true value of a WordPress theme: Hermes Themes and a $200 price tag

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dumitru-brinzan-photo

Photo courtesy of Dumitru BrinzanDumitru Brinzan, founder of Hermes Themes, rowing during a vacation in Romania.

$35, $75, $40, and $200. One of these doesn’t sound like the others.

Dumitru Brinzan, who has a long history in WordPress themes at WPZOOM, has started a new theme project called Hermes Themes. The shop offers strictly hotel themes, in contrast to WPZOOM’s more varied selection.

Interestingly, Brinzan is pricing his hotel themes at $200, well above the average cost of themes at the moment. It’s a bold decision, and not one that you see many theme shops making at the moment. I sat down with him to talk a bit about what motivated him to start Hermes Themes, and in particular to price his themes that high.

The pricing is very deliberate on Brinzan’s part. “To be honest, I thought about pricing for a very long time,” he told WPCandy. “I considered making it cheaper, or even more expensive.” His decision to sell themes for $200 wasn’t a simple one, and took his entire history selling WordPress themes into account.

Start by serving a real need

While the pricing is an intriguing aspect of Hermes Themes, it’s not why Brinzan started the new shop. He saw a need.

“Other options that hotels have right now are really expensive,” he told WPCandy. “This is why we still have hotel websites developed in 2002 and 2003.” Anyone who has ever booked a hotel stay can attest to that, no doubt.

Just a couple of days before our interview, Brinzan described seeing a luxury four star hotel with a website that hadn’t changed a bit since 2001. Well, aside from the addition of Facebook links last year. “Imagine that!” Brinzan said.

Many solutions for hotel websites are hosted and subscription based. This can cost hotel business owners anywhere from hundreds to four or five thousand dollars every year. That’s a good deal for a website, but even worse if and when they decide to move on they are left with nothing. No website to adapt and no content to work with (aside from scraping their own) leaves them needing to start over from scratch.

“Just imagine sinking in thousands in two or three years, and then you realize you have nothing, no website at all,” Brinzan said. “It’s a trap!”

“That,” he explained,” is the problem with using proprietary content management systems.” WordPress, Brinzan believes, is a much better long-term solution for hotels, and he has tried to emphasize this by sticking to standard content types and a focus on portability.

hermes-themes-screenshot

Photo by Ryan ImelHermes Themes is a solo project by Dumitru Brinzan that sells hotel themes for $200.

Hermes Themes currently offers four different $200 themes, with live demonstrations of each as you might expect. My instinct, particularly with a $200 price tag but also with hotel themes in general, is that the themes themselves would be fairly complex. I expected complex sections where availability would be reflected in booking forms and choosing the size of room desired would weigh in too. But that’s not the case — Hermes Themes seem very simple, with basic contact information and assuming booking forms that don’t suggest the need for these more involved features.

“Just imagine sinking in thousands in two or three years, and then you realize you have nothing, no website at all. It’s a trap!”

Instead, he puts an emphasis on local attractions, photo galleries, testimonials, and layouts featuring large photos of the rooms available. Brinzan seems to suggest, both in the features offered in his themes and the marketing within Hermes Themes itself, that the problems hotels face has nothing to do with advanced website features, but the basics. In a blog post Brinzan wrote last month he runs down the most common mistakes he finds hotel websites making. The list includes sites that aren’t mobile-friendly, flash navigation and slide shows, missing contact information and (yikes) background music that plays when the page loads.

Perhaps simple, attractive, and focused is what hotel websites need more than complex booking forms. I’ll be curious to see how this approach works for hotels, and more specifically what types of hotels it attracts.

Brinzan isn’t the only one to determine a new WordPress option is a smart bet for hotel businesses. Others, like Brian Casel, have come to similar conclusions. Casel’s Hotel Propeller service takes a different approach, which is to offer a hosted service for $29 per month. The service is still built on top of the WordPress platform, though, and offers a handful of different themes for use by subscribed members.

There are also occasional hotel theme offerings from known theme shops, and at the moment a search for “hotel” on ThemeForest pulls up more than 60 WordPress themes. This doesn’t make hotel themes as popular a subgenre as certain others — business and portfolio themes, anyone? — it’s certainly a growing one.

Customer trends and selecting your own clients

Competition in this space may demand more time and focus from Brinzan over time, as any success Hermes Themes sees will most certainly lead to others jumping at the chance to compete with hotel themes at his prices. Right now, along with his Hermes Themes project, Brinzan is the co-founder and lead developer of WPZOOM. WPZOOM began as a popular WordPress blog in 2008, and grew into a theme shop in 2009 when it released its first theme.

Balancing the needs of two projects can be difficult, as anyone who has tried it can tell you. Brinzan admits to taking this into consideration with Hermes Themes.

“I’m trying to better manage my time,” he said. “But at the moment WPZOOM takes more time of course. Hermes still needs to take off,” he said with a smile.

His time spent with WPZOOM is in part what inspired him to make the pricing decisions he has with Hermes Themes so far — specifically, the time spent working with clients WPZOOM worked with.

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Brinzan is still co-founder and lead developer of WPZOOM, and currently splits his time between it and his new project Hermes Themes.

“I sometimes provide customization services to our customers,” he told WPCandy, and said that in doing so he has worked with quite a few people. Brinzan explained that customers would regularly not mind paying $69 for a theme — the current standard package price at WPZOOM — and then an additional $200 for customization work.

“This made me think they wouldn’t mind paying $200 from the start, for a product that is very close to their needs.”

But it’s not all about pricing at what the customer will pay — though that plays big into the thinking here — Brinzan is attempting to select his clients too. “Again, from my experience with WPZOOM, we have discovered something very peculiar: clients that pay more are somewhat less needy, if I may say so.”

He explained that clients utilizing coupons and discounts are more likely to also utilize WPZOOM’s support system, sometimes firing off ten support questions in as many minutes. These customers also tended to ignore instructions, documentation, and video tutorials more often.

“So I am thinking that such a price would attract mostly people that really need a theme, and really like what they see,” Brinzan said. “No impulse shopping.”

Theme pricing comes up yet again

I’ve heard the idea of a thousand dollar theme discussed a couple of times in the WordPress community the last year or two. Usually it’s a heck of a conversation starter. What makes a theme worth that much money? Will we ever see that sort of thing available in the current theme marketplace?

Theme pricing, do’s and don’t’s, and the direction of the theme market is a topic that comes up often in the WordPress community. The earliest pricing milestone I can remember probably came in early 2008, when designer Tung Do — who at the time ran WPDesigner.com — announced a $5 theme club.

“This made me think they wouldn’t mind paying $200 from the start, for a product that is very close to their needs.”

Now, at that point in time, theme clubs were a bit of a new idea. Themes more often cost around ten times that price or even higher, and no membership system even approached a price that low. The themes Do was producing were of a solid quality. It was a mis-match of price and quality that was bound to stir pricing discussions.

A couple of years later, in 2011, Mike McAlister started a heck of a discussion around his analysis of the $35 theme, a standard price point on ThemeForest at the time. His essay was great, but the more than two hundred comments following it were even more interesting.

Last year Jake Caputo’s ThemeThrift project brought up theme pricing again, but this time with the onus on the customer. ThemeThrift customers could choose which price to pay, with even the option to pay nothing in the beginning. Caputo later adjusted the pricing options, removing the zero dollar amount, and adding higher tiers that offered a bundled plugin along with it.

We’ve seen prices on themes go low to test the waters and draw attention, but not nearly as often have we seen prices go high. Is it about time for a thousand dollar theme?

The evolution of the value of WordPress themes

What exactly does the future of theme prices hold?

I tend to think we’ll see even more pricing toward the middle amongst marketplaces and your average theme shops, with up selling to developer packages in many cases. Smaller shops and individuals are likely to get a bit more bold, maybe not quite to the extreme of a $5 theme club or a $200 theme, but daring nonetheless. We’ll also see more specialty shops like Hermes Themes pop up, I think, to cater toward the growing need for WordPress themes geared more specifically toward certain needs.

Another way to ask the question is: what is the true value of a theme? Serious people are using WordPress and looking for professional themes to make it shine. Seeing theme developers and business owners take on that challenge is exciting to watch.

39 thoughts on “The true value of a WordPress theme: Hermes Themes and a $200 price tag

  1. the true value of the theme sits in the eyes of the creator. the customer (or potential customer) may validate this and purchase or not. I give first priority (and honor) to the creator. wtg on selling it as you see fit!

  2. I think I might have been one of those advocating for $1000+ themes for vertical markets. Considering what it can do for the business if the vendor can really invest a lot into the theme to make it specific to the vertical market, it only makes sense. Another option is to launch a vertical-specific web host based on WordPress as RestaurantEngine and HappyTables have done. Unlike most bloggers, good businesses have more money than time and a great website can generate money for them; underpricing in that market hurts everyone.

    • Mike, I couldn’t agree with you more. A business where the website is their selling point should do as much as possible to keep their store(website) fresh and clean.

      Seeing an old and under-performing website for a hotel with 50 rooms and prices over $150 is just unpleasant.

      As a traveler I never pick hotels with bad websites.
      If you have yearly revenues of over a million dollars and you can’t invest a couple hundred in a good website, then you might be cutting down on breakfast and housekeeping as well, so no thank you.

      I’m not saying that a bad website means a bad hotel, but it is a red flag that I’m keeping an eye on.

  3. The biggest problem I see here is the Hermes branding – using the trademarked name of a multi-billion dollar luxury goods manufacturer is beyond dumb, 99% of what they do is track down counterfeiters and trademark infringers. Those legal departments don’t play nice, they don’t send polite Cease & Desist letters; they will ruthlessly pursue damages based on an outlandish estimate of how much money has been made by stealing their trademark.

    Dumitru being based in Moldova is a protection of sorts, that country is well beyond international law, but it won’t stop Hermes from seizing the domain via UDRP and getting Plimus, his payment provider, to freeze his account. It will be a lot of unnecessary stress when, honestly, it would be a lot smarter to just come up with a better name in the first place and not have to change it later.

    • Thank you for your input, and I do appreciate the condescending appreciation of Moldova. You should probably read more about Moldova, before jumping to biased conclusions such as “Moldova is well beyond international law”.

      I should also note that I am not using a trademarked name. If you would research this field a bit more, you will find out that you obviously cannot trademark a generic word or name. Otherwise we would have companies trademarking such words as “water”, “mother”, “love”, etc.

      Hermes is a name, it is not a made-up word such as “Facebook”, “Coca Cola” or “HERMÈS INTERNATIONAL”. You cannot trademark the word “Hermes”. This is one of the reasons why the clothing brand you are referring to is actually “HERMÈS INTERNATIONAL”.
      Can you spot the difference?

      • Dumitru, you took exception to my tone and you are right: I meant to be emphatic, not condescending, but wrote in a hurry and should have given more thought to phrases such as “beyond dumb”. I apologize for that.

        Please understand, what I write here is based on the horrible realities of how these things work, not on any wish to see it happen to you or anyone else. Put aside pride for a moment and ask yourself, bluntly, if what I am saying might say you a lot of time, stress and money in the long run.

        As it happens, your interpretation of trademark law is wrong – understandable but wrong – and you have not done your homework: they have trademarked the word “HERMES”, to apply in all combinations, in multiple categories, not, as you assume, their company name “HERMÈS INTERNATIONAL” – they have not trademarked that at all. Also, to call them a “clothing brand” is a serious underestimation of their scope.

        The fact that Hermes is a name is irrelevant; you must surely be aware that a significant proportion of the world’s most established brand names were originally names. What matters, in trademark law, is who is first to apply that name to a company profitable enough and aggressive enough to have their legal department tie it up.

        Even if your were right, the cost of putting up a defense would be overwhelming; if you think $200 themes are expensive, wait until you see what US trademark lawyers charge per hour and you cannot put up a defense without one.

        Less than a year ago, Hermes won $100m in damages against the owner of a bunch of crappy websites.  The website owner did not even put up a defense. Hermes did not collect that amount, of course, but they got to take whatever the guy had. Today, the 20th of March, just a few hours ago, a court in Taiwan awarded them $7.5m against another clueless infringer – my point is that their aggressive protection of their mark is continual and a central part of what their company is about.

        My statement about Moldova being beyond the reach of international law, well, actually, with regard to enforcing a US civil damages award, it is – if you believe I am wrong about that, okay, please provide just ONE example where such an award has been successfully applied against the Moldovan assets of a Moldovan entity.

        Again, I am just trying to give a picture of the realities, there is no point getting puffed up with nationalistic pride. The important point is that, in the case of legal action, you could avoid having to pay the award, whatever the amount, but it would remain outstanding and you would have to avoid visiting or taking a job in the US for the next decade or two. That would suck.

        They may not bother to blow you out of the water like that but, personally, I would not take the risk of having my life ruined by a company desperate to warn off other infringers and a legal department anxious to prove their value. Remember, the way a trademark is preserved and, indeed, strengthened over the years is by active enforcement and building up an ever-growing stack of wins to establish precedent. Easy targets like this are a gift to trademark holders.

        Even putting aside the possibility of a trademark action, you are building a business on a domain that you may not be able to keep: the incredibly corrupt UDRP domain dispute process is even more stacked in favor of established corporations; the “independent” arbiter will immediately rubber-stamp the domain over to Hermes unless you are willing to pay $1,500 for the right to have it decided by a panel of three arbiters, one of whom you get to pick from an approved list. Even then, it will take them only about a minute longer to find in favor of the complainant.  A quick search of UDRP cases taken by Hermes reveals that they have won ALL of them, every single one.

        I should have found a way to express that more politely, or, perhaps, I should have just minded my own business and let you learn this lesson your own way, but I am bothering to reply now because your response may lead others to misinterpret the system in the same way and that could be a disaster for them. I also want to get my thoughts on the record because there is a good chance that this will shake out more or less as I have outlined it.

        • And I apologize for overreacting a little bit.

          I have read about the $100m lawsuit, which was against the owner of websites which actively sold fake merchandise under the name and brand of HERMES, with their logo, product names and all.

          Excerpt from Wikipedia:
          “He [Hermes] was protector and patron of travelers [..]”.

          This is why I have decided to use his name in the title for my business for hotels. Of course I have considered other options as well, but this one sticked better to my ears.

          My logo and branding has absolutely no resemblance to the Hermes International company.

          I do have to agree with you that at a glance this might look risky, in case you are familiar with this luxury brand, but I truly and honestly believe that there is absolutely no connection between these two businesses.
          And it should be perfectly legal to use any generic word or name found in our history, this goes without saying.

          And again, I thank you for the time you took to write all of this, I really appreciate your opinion.

          • Likewise, apologies for my original tone and best of luck with it – with regard to the main discussion, your themes look slick and, hopefully, customers will understand the very real value of paying more for a theme that requires less modification … and, no doubt, all commercial WordPress theme developers will learn from your pricing experiment 🙂

  4. $200 looks crazy in the context of the WordPress theme market but I can see how it could be attractive among other hotel website solutions. I suppose it’s not like the average owner is going to specifically want a WordPress theme. They probably just was a good website with some support.

    There are thousands of mom and pop bed and breakfasts out there and the quality of web design is in general somewhat poor. I can see a do it yourself solution at this price being attractive to those small business owners.

    A followup some months down the line of how this pricing model has worked would be fantastic.

  5. Great information, and upon reading the initial comment by donnacha, I was expecting a declaration of war style comment section. However, I was very pleasantly surprised at how well both sides handled the discussion.

    I create completely custom themes for my own clients, and I am generally against using templates, but themes that are tailored to a specific trade / businesses are something I see emerging more and more.

    From my perspective, I think the most important thing “moving forward” with WordPress Themes is to get away from “Standalone” styled frameworks and let Themes run as they should.

    For example, I was asked to make changes to a site running a framework, and because it was a free version, I probably ended up charging more to implement a change than it would have cost the client to simply buy the full version of the framework. I explained the issues (framework essentially locked out custom loops, database queries, and other simple WordPress theme development functions), but the client was extremely insistent on paying me instead.

    Anyways, great article, solid points, and definitely some food for thought.

    • Michael, this is one of the reasons why our themes are not based on any framework, they are completely independent.

      I really tried making their structure and maintenance as simple as possible. Some of our clients will be hiring third-party developers for additional customization, so I wanted to make this easy for them as well.

        • I would love to see the downfall, or at least the reduction of the theme framework model. They lock you in (for free) and make you pay if you want to keep developing something you got from them.

          I think the price of a (custom) theme should be reflected in the invoice you are going to be delivering to the company that contracts for the finished site. Hell, I don’t even mention themes to my clients… They say they want such and such a site, and that’s what I give them. I might give them the ability to switch “skins” or themes, but more often than not, that’s not what they really care about.

          The latest news I have is that I’ve been invited to submit a proposal (bid) for a local drug store. They are more interested in search engine results than anything else. The site is just a big, virtual business card for them. Themes, or the lack of them, just doesn’t figure into the equation.

          • Please, forgive my grammar and typos in my comment above. My spell-checking went mad and posted the comment without fixing the problems. My apologies.

            To finish my comment: Most clients don’t even know what a theme is, nor even what WordPress is, other than a free blog site. Trying to tell them that what they are getting is based on WordPress style software is often an exercise in futility.

            I show them the product, and they sign off on the contract.

            p.s. — I use a WordPress on a USB stick as part of my bid to show what they can expect to see (after the DSA has been signed of course). Later, I can show clients how the project is coming along. This allows positive two-way communication between the client and myself. You wouldn’t believe the number of problems that can be averted by using this very simple technique. It’s also a great way to make sure the contract between me and the client is being carried out to the satisfaction of both parties.

            Cheers!

          • *sigh* NDA, not NSA. Non disclosure agreement. I need to try and read what I type faster than I do. I’m a touch typist who does all his corrections after all the typing is done. Usually that works out well, but not always. 🙂

  6. A very interesting article. I think his rationale is right, and i personally agree that cheapskates are bad clients 😀

    $200 for a fitting theme is a good deal.

  7. I have performed SEO for hotels that have dreadful websites, and I had little ability to influence change thereof because the offshore owners knew little about the importance of the web and presentation. Their Marketing Manager wanted SEO but wasn’t prepared to make the changes necessary.

    This theme/s would have been a godsend.

    I really enjoyed the above discussion over the trade mark. Doannacha you made a worthwhile contribution that we can all learn from, and I think that the way you both moderated your positions and tone was exemplary. Thank you both!

    • Hi Phil,

      It is never too late to get started with WordPress and our themes 🙂

      And you are correct, it is very difficult to ‘push’ hotel owners and administrators into the right direction. Sometimes the way they resist to change is incredible 🙂

  8. I accept that $200 is high for WordPress themes but I the target audience is not your average WordPress purchaser. By their nature, these hotels are generally pretty serious businesses. In that context, $200 for a fully functioning website is nothing. Their guests would spill more than that at breakfast everyday!

    The biggest challenge is convincing these ‘corporates’ that WordPress is a viable alternative to paying a bomb for some company to do the whole thing for them.

  9. Pingback: The Economic Theory Of Selling WordPress Themes | WPShout.com

  10. I think the themes are beautiful and well-worth the price! I loved how you gentlemen handled your conversation above. A great example to us all!

  11. It’s not a bad looking theme at all but it’s not exactly modified for a vertical market; there’s nothing you can’t do in that theme that you can’t do in 1000s of commercial themes. There’s a slider, 3 call-out images, a few news items and a footer, a few custom post types – rooms/rates etc. and a basic booking form. Compared to similar themes on the market at a quarter of the price, I would have at least expected a more complex and integrated booking system.

    Having said that, the true worth of good WP themes is at least $200 as I’m the re-sell value of that theme when sold to even a small hotel would be several times that price.

    I guess all very lucky at the moment that the competition is so fierce that we can pick up incredible themes at $50.

    • Thank you Jon for your feedback.

      I would like to point out that my objective is not to pack the themes with everything possible to have in a WP theme, as most of other themes are doing, such as 90% of themes on TF.

      The main objective is to make beautiful and easy to use themes, something that I cannot stress enough. For us developers WordPress is easy, but for someone having zero experience with CMSs in general, it can be frightening.
      Add to the mix a Theme Options page with hundreds of options, add the hundreds of short-codes people add to their themes, the multitude of JS and CSS files, and the result will be a very confused customer.

      Our themes are a breeze to start with and especially easy to customize.

      As for a booking system, it is still in a brainstorming phase, most customers have third-party systems that they easily integrate into the theme, so it is not such a popular request or question.

      And yes, I have to agree that the re-sell value of WP themes is high, which makes them such a great service to provide.

  12. Very interesting analysis, maybe even a deeper study with all the criteria that influence the prices for WP themes would be a great info. Concerning hotel WordPress themes, I would say the decision to sell more expensive themes is natural (but the approach to sell beautiful themes without advanced features is unclear to me), giving the fact that hotels probably are looking for complete booking systems/plugins and have a complex managing system in the background. Anyway Hermes Themes is for sure a nice theme shop to watch, good luck Dumitru and regards.

  13. I have been building websites for a number of years but recently discovered via Yahoo Small Business an integration feature with WordPress. I had no idea the power that WordPress possessed and now I am addicted. This is a great article. I think the price is right especially for the hotel industry. My site is in the very beginning stages but I would like to eventually have it evolve into a full scale quoting system for my clients and not just a data collection center as most other agents use. I look forward to building something dynamic with the power of WordPress and I love the fact that you can change so easily between themes and the plugins (although I haven’t incorporated any yet) look to make this a very simple and easy to change solution for all lines of business. Thanks for the article!

  14. To all those squawking about the price of $200, sure that is a bit out of the normal range for a wp theme. You must keep in mind for the 75% of websites in the world that are not using wp, $200 is nothing. I know lots of website builders that still charge $5k for base custom website…ouch!

  15. Dumitru, having experimented with price points for wp themes and packages well above $100 myself, I am 100% confident that it will work out for you.

    Not competing on price and features and going for: “the main objective is to make beautiful and easy to use themes”, as you put it in one comment above, is the way to go.

    I love these new designs! All the Best for your new venture!

  16. This is the first time I’ve come across this pricing conversation and I’d appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts.

    1. Value, in this context, is better defined by the purchaser, not the vendor.
    2. A theme can save 100s of development hours for some web sites. This gives it a potential value of well over $10,000.
    3. The theme marketplace has grown up around smaller businesses & one-man dev teams. That is starting to change, larger businesses will reap 10s, if not 100s of thousands of dollars in the generic theme marketplace.
    4. Higher value-added vendors are appearing, this trend will increase ala RedHat in the UNIX/LINUX world.
    5. Pro marketing departments in medium-sized businesses, ironically, will find it harder to justify a $35 solution rather than a $5000 solution. Odd, isn’t it?

    This is only my opinion. I should declare some self interest, my company sells solutions to medium/large businesses based around the WP platform and we sell them for a lot more than $35.

  17. An excellent article and outstanding replies!

    A firm “Way to go you two!” to the two persons who had the extended conversation about trademarks, etc.

    As I mentioned in my reply, I don’t sell themes, I sell a finished product. Being able to modify the look and feel of that product on the fly is a wonderful boon to us in the business.

    Is $200.00 too much? Absolutely not! If I stand to make over $1,000.00 in gross revenue on a site, that $200.00 is money well spent for me.

    And… I can use the same theme for a future client! (right?).

    As near as I can tell, it’s a win-win-win situation for Dumitru, myself, and the client.

    Ciao!

  18. While the $200 price tag is likely to give many of us sticker shock at first, I’m not sure that it’s not all that unfair of a price. The direct market is for hotels, real and likely big businesses where $200 is a drop in the bucket especially for something as essential as a website. For other bloggers and WP users, $200 themes are still a way out in the future (though with developments and evolution in theming, it’s possible). For a hotel-focused theme provider though, $200 seems cheap.

    This website that a hotel purchases and sets up on WP is going to be linked to and showcased all over their network, in commercials, be visited by guests, and likely be the homepage for their own computers and wifi network. Only paying $200 for that website design and coding seems like a sweet deal to me.

  19. I think a $200 price tag might be fair, given the final purpose of the themes, even if it’s a tricky price. Still, the price may vary in both extremes. Like on this Premium WordPress Theme Club, where it starts with $25 and keeps the same level of quality in terms of appearance and functionality.

  20. US$ 200 for a few days of website development, graphic design, content cleaning and security checking is #cheap!

    Look at the professional agencies and what they charge for a simple website. Like WPHub said… their pricing will start around 4 to 5 K and that price-tag grows according to the number of pages and functionality to be implemented.

    But “pricing” itself is a funny thing too. I bet everyone had that moment where he/she noticed that when you’re looking at themes that are available for anything lower than US$ 100, you feel this “cheap” aura around them (even when they’re actually great). And now be honest: if a theme comes at US$ 100,- or more you’ll start looking closer at it to see what makes it special, don’t you? Oh dear psychology… as long as it pays the rent. 😉

  21. WPZOOM is a great quality theme provider. I hadn’t known about Hermes Themes before reading this, so thanks for letting us all know!

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